Some lawyers are quite poor. Top-earning BAs earn more than the average lawyer or doctor. In Canada, a GP's training is around 4 years pre-med, 4 years med, and 3 years residency - a total of 11 years of dedication. Should teachers be paid the same as doctors or lawyers? Nurses cannot diagnose, while doctors have to ability to diagnose. Doctors and emergency first responders who are exposed to COVID-19 could lose their jobs if they don’t show up for work despite the risks, under provisions in a … Yeah, that makes me think you have no idea what I actually do. Nurses are paid less than GPs because their education represents a fraction of the sacrifice to earn it. Say you are an insurance company. Rather, NPs see far less sick patients on average than internists/family medicine physicians. I think personally think nurses do deserve more pay as they also have to study and work long hours on their feet. Posted by 3 months ago. To get to that amount, you have to substract: - 35,000$ in office fees, in order to pay for the clinic rent and staff (can vary depending on the office and number of hours worked), - 1,600$ in responsability insurance (that's for Quebec but it's 5,700$ in Ontario), - 1,700$ to keep my license with the Medical College, - 5,000$ to my facturation agency that handles my billing (billing is very complex and few doctors do it themselves). If they send the patient to your hospital for a $100,000 heart surgery, you make a ton of money. The work they do has been diminishing. So even the diagnosis part that a GP provides is getting less and less critical. Also, the 3rd party reimbursement have become ridiculously low. Maybe not doctors, who can make over $300k / year coming right out of med school (separate problems with that actually), but teachers are very important to society and should be paid more than the shitty ~$40k salaries they are getting in parts of the US. They make it to 70 and have a major heart attack. If they were paid a fee for what they did, not just the impact of what they accomplished, it would be very little (they just talked to the patient for an hour). share. Not the current teachers. 1 – 7 Thus, linking payment directly with output will tend to encourage workers to increase production in order to maximize income. Then they die at 75. Now say the family doctor doesn't diagnose the patient. The doctors don’t like it, and neither do the patients. •They often work long hours and often work shifts or have to be on-call. The earnings they make are as a function of the treatment that their practice makes. Promoted Listen to the latest songs , only on JioSaavn.com Yes, because we gotta educate the future generations into not being selfish pigs willing to jeopardise humans as a species and the Earth we inhabit for some oil. When I generate a report, my boss ultimately holds the legal repsonsibility so if anything goes wrong, it is his head on the line. All careers are not created equal. Source: OCDE and El Pais. How hard is it to convince people that a murderer is innocent? If all the doctors in the world were to quit right now, Then half the human population would be wiped out. Nurse Practitioners (NPs) instead are the ones taking on the hard cases. I'm not seeing why GPs should be paid a lot more. Now, if the doctor got paid more per visit, he or she could see less patients in a day, see each patient for a longer period of time, and likely make better, holistic choices for the patient. They are the ones who lose their jobs, licenses, and potentially go to jail if they screw up. Many family doctors even now refuse to accept frail seniors as their patient roster, and instead only take on the easy cases. Forget the school loans part of it - if you are requiring one position to take several years longer to do, then you should acknowledge that they should have higher earning capacity when they're done. When teachers need a decade of schooling then yes. Have you ever tried teaching basic concepts to little kids? You've already awarded deltas in this post, but there's one more reason why family doctors are so valuable and why they are actually underpaid. For Quebec it's around 200,000 but it's higher in some provinces (Alberta mostly). Your compensation is directly correlated to the level of difficulty of your profession. The case is no different with a GP. In Canada (and presumably USA), the average family doctor salary is between $200,000 to $250,000. But if celebrities quit, That wouldn't be so bad. I wouldn't trust my neighbor to diagnose me, even if they are right 90% of the time. save. And please don't drag the whole "they need to pay for their medical school bill" into the equation. BUT, if you pay more you will get better talent wanting those jobs, so yes, teachers should make more. And a lot of the diagnosis part can be automated, e.g. If you assume the average doctor or lawyer was an above-average undergraduate, he may have done just as well skipping grad school. r/AskReddit is the place to ask and answer thought-provoking questions. Why would anyone want extra responsibility for no extra compensation? Close. That is up to 15 years of training before they enter the profession, over 3 times as long as the nurses spend. Cardiologists also stand second in the competition of highest-paid doctors in this place with a salary of $512,000 annually and the urologists are third in the list with a salary of … Half the respondents thought doctors deserved more pay, while 80 per cent said nurses should be given a high wage rise. This is partly why lots of hospital systems are buying practices from family doctors. A computer algorithm could replace a family doctor in the future the same way self driving cars can replace human drivers. There is a wide range of NP quality. Machine Learning and Artificial Intelligence. Nurse Practitioners (NPs) instead are the ones taking on the hard cases, for a much lower salary (between $100,000 to $150,000). You have to pay for all of it. Enter with a mindset for conversation, not debate. W.r.t GPs not treating more complex illnesses, this is because the Canadian model designates your GP as a "Gate keeper" of your care. If you want to compare my salary with other jobs please do use this amount. Table 1. If they were paid as a percentage of their overall cost reduction, it's a lot. ". They are less well trained, receiving on average '600 hours of clinical instruction during their entire formal education, which is less than physicians receive in just the first year of a three-year medical residency." The family doctor chooses which specialist to send the patient to. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. My aunt is an "advanced nurse practitioner" (she got there after a lot of additional studying and experience) and she mainly does diabetes monitoring and keeping up with people but she does deal with diagnosing new cases and can prescribe, however she double checks a lot of her prescriptions with the doctors because they are more qualified. We're not even close to that. The burden of selecting which specialist's to see if purposefully taken away from the patiejt because they are ignorant to what they need and if they go to specialist who wouldn't be able to help their presenting issue, the practitioner may run tests which may cause frivolous exploration of tangential or unrelated problems because that doctor has a legal liability to explore any potential cases for harm they may determine. That instantly make them among the top 1% (and probably higher, more like among the top 0.5%). Why? In Figure 6, Dr. X is generating $750,000. All I can say is that you do not have the whole picture of family medicine in Canada. I don't know how NPs work in your province but in Quebec they litterally cannot take the hard cases, as they have strict criteria for the patients they can take under their care. But we aren't there yet. People tend to make what the market values them at. After that, it's just a mechanical process of making sure the patient gets the right pill at the right time. This will increase demand for private schools which will create more of them which will create more private schools jobs which will mean more teachers are making more money. In the US, it's a bit lower than that, around $189,000. I don't think I can change your view on the question, because it seems like you have had terrible experiences which have left you with a very diminutive view of a family doctor's job. More patients per hour means less time with each patient – no getting around it. You would presumably have no problem with a business owner making any amount of money that the free market provides for their goods and services. I will start by aknowledging that I have a conflict of interest on that question as I am a family doctor myself. 23 comments. The more prestigious a law firm is, the more they pay their lawyers. It takes 50% longer to become a GP - should their salary not reflect that effort and knowledge requirement? Depending on the type of insurance, employers lead the decision-making, but often insurance companies have more … It might be the nurse doing a lot of the work, but it's the doctor that signs their name and accountability on the line, so that when something goes wrong, it's on them. After being tested and diagnosed, Jenet was on the hook for an ER bill of more than $1,000. If they send it to your competitor, they make the money. Thanks. To put into perspective: nurses get paid around $85K, NPs get paid around $150,000, GPs get paid $250,000. Right now, family doctors are the single best source of information. But doctors should be highly regarded. Every year there are more tests available for doctors to order. A trash collector works harder than a biochemist. This is a tragedy because family doctors handle most of the healthcare prevention, which is just as important (if not more) as treatment when you're looking at the big picture of healthcare in Canada. They then have a $100,000 heart surgery and hospitalization. I'm not seeing why GPs should be paid a lot more. As part of that same claim, Obama also said teacher pay … When things get tough, they make referrals to specialists. Maybe we need to decrease this but that's a separate topic. The cost to run his practice is $250,000. Because we have limited resources and doctors have a code of conduct they need to adhere to ethically, our care is segmented in ways to make sure the most in need are taken care of and we aren't sitting in hospitals catching illnesses waiting to do tests you never needed in the first place. The engineer brings more knowledge to the table and could do the drafting themselves, but it is simply more efficient to have drafters as it frees up the engineers time so they can use more of their specialized knowledge. Doctors should be guided by good judgment grounded in science. Doctors.net.uk, a professional networking site, found that 593 (54%) of the 1,096 doctors who took part in the self-selecting survey answered yes when asked: "Should … Teachers definitely need to make more. Looks like you're using new Reddit on an old browser. That's a fair point. I work in Canada, more precisely Quebec, which is precisely the context you are referring to. It's like how a CEO who owns stock in the company will make a lot more money than a CEO who just gets salary. A place to post an opinion you accept may be flawed, in an effort to understand other perspectives on the issue. That being said, family doctor is still a well-paying job even though it looks worse than it really is. I am not just a dispatcher. Essentially, a trip to the doctor should feel more like a restorative trip to the spa and less like stint in a Petri dish. I would say their salary should be based on specialty and their amount of education in their field. My experience is of course very different from yours, but I can assure you that I, as most doctors, truly care about my patients. We can see that these 1,000 players, .14% out of the total, earn way more than doctors on average but the next group of professional players who earn the most are the ones playing in 2 nd B Division. And please don't drag the whole "they need to pay for their medical school bill" into the equation. The site may not work properly if you don't, If you do not update your browser, we suggest you visit, Press J to jump to the feed. This I includes providing the wage for their staff, payment of cost of care. Sure, if there're more doctors, they will be able to save more lives. Residents only make $50k/year. MDs do some extensive training to make the big bucks. As a result they order significantly more lab tests and other studies that physicians have to. do you have any idea how many shitty teachers there are in the usa alone? In Canada a GP is not a salaried employee they are effectively a limited liability business. Never mind that consultants are already paid an average of £108,000 a year, while middle-grade doctors earn between £60,000 and £80,000, with 25 per cent an hour extra for anti-social shifts. Your job is to keep 10,000 people healthy for as cheap as possible. To go back to your premise which is regarding a family doctor's pay, I would like to inform you that family medicine is losing popularity at an alarming rate within medical students, who are chosing medical specialties in bigger proportions in the recent years. It used to be that they take care of sick people, but now most family doctors simply diagnose, and then leave the treatment to the nurses. To put into perspective: nurses get paid around $85K, NPs get paid around $150,000, GPs get paid $250,000. The answer is that they bear the risk. They also spent a lot of time with cadavers which doesn't sound too nice. As a final point, diagnosis is by far the most difficult part of treating someone. 'Doctors and nurses are … “Doctors earned more last year than ever before. I wouldn't trust an RN or an NP to make the final diagnosis on a life or death condition, even if they are right 99% of the time. We can certainly fix that piece, but it doesn't justify their high salary. Because without them, we'd have no doctors & lawyers..... Maybe not the same as doctors and lawyers but definitely more than they have now. NPs and PAs receive only 2 years of training in total, they don't even do residency. The court quoted media reports from Hyderabad and Delhi on doctors not being paid and said "such incidents should not have happened". Economic theory and common sense both suggest that the way people are paid affects their working patterns. If you tell me a GP is paid around the same level as my boss, that I can agree...but a near 30% increased on top of a senior manager in a equally sophisticated field sounds ridiculous. It's not unfair for them to make much more than doctors if they can generate much more revenues than doctors. Doctors get paid more because there are less of them and they are more educated than nurses. 4. NO! To draw a parallel to engineering, engineers make significantly more than draft technicians. Now say you are a hospital system. •Risk - if a doctor makes a mistake he is liable for that. It is not what I end up in my pockets with, however, as I have many expenses that are required for me to do my job. The cost of the additional testing creates a burden on the health care system offsetting their lower salary. A biochemist gets paid more because less people have the education to be a biochemist. Some are excellent, and should be encouraged to get MDs. ( Spending time in hospitals and getting treatment has a toll on your health and is commonly the cause of death for post Op patients.). I mean, Doctors SAVE LIVES, While famous people are just performing. No one working,whose salary is taxpayer funded, is going to make a lot of money. So why does a family doctor get to bear the risk? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Introduction. Engineers also train/school for 8 years to become licensed, while drafting school is 2 years. (Most doctors pay their overhead – including office space and staff wages – out of their income.) A NP requires 4 years BSN, 1 year experience, 2 years for a master's, and then ~6 months for eligibility hours - 7.5 years of dedication. Good luck having a machine handle your depression. This may be true in rare clinics, but in general it is not. How hard is it to teach a group of motivated freshmen linear algebra? However all this exploration would be costly, time consuming and possibly take away from other patients or even worse increase the negative outcomes of the patient themselves. The simple answer is that patients refuse to accept anything less. The data show the average physician was paid $328,000 for clinical services last year, from a high of $376,000 in Ontario to a low of $258,000 in Nova Scotia. We can certainly fix that piece, but it … Patients should not be hesitant to question their doctors if they don’t understand why a test is being done or what difference the results will make. That is the gross amount. Becoming a professional None of the 16 countries paid teachers more than doctors, and 10 had higher test scores than the U.S. in one or more subject areas. Family doctors, endocrinologists, and internists earned just a little more. But then again, we're talking about pure economics here. I think I would still clear out a few important points, because reading your text really saddened me. Doctors should not order any of them without good reason. It is simply more efficient to train someone to diagnose which is more complicated and then dedicate their time to diagnosing while less educated people do the treatment which is easier(in a knowledge sense). /u/seanwarmstrong (OP) has awarded 3 delta(s) in this post. Emergency room doctors and nurses who are putting their personal health at risk to treat coronavirus patients are now finding their pay, compensation and other benefits being cut as … A lot of professional leagues have a college requirement before a player is eligible to be drafted. Many family doctors even now refuse to accept frail seniors as their patient roster, and instead only take on the easy cases. But the diagnosis (which nurses can do as well) is 95% of the process. Brilliant college kids rarely become public school teachers in America. •They study for years and have to work impossibly hard. But I will point out that the medical spending controlled by your average family doctor, through direct care, tests and consultations ordered, emergency room visits and hospitalizations — per capita spending multiplied by the number of patients cared for — is in the ten-million-dollar ballpark to borrow a term from America’s favorite sport. They had weekly exams and little time to study because they had classes all day. Caitlin Hoff, a consumer advocate with ConsumerSafety.org, says doctors paid by the medical industry may still be prescribing medications they believe are … In order to change my mind, you would need to show me what is it that GPs provide that a RN or NP cannot which justify their 50% higher salary. I do however, have the humilty of admitting when a problem suprasses my expertise, and will gladly ask for an opinion from a specialist in that domain if that is the better thing to do for my patient. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts, '600 hours of clinical instruction during their entire formal education, which is less than physicians receive in just the first year of a three-year medical residency. It is simply not the focus of their formation. I work in a data science field. Why? With the longer visit time with the doctor, the patient would be happier. I don't mean to diminish the work nurses do, and there are a lot of challenges there too. It is their responsibility to have the knowledge of what can be treated now and what could be a greater risk and needs to be escalated to the appropriate specialist.

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